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This transcript is from a radio interview by Lynne Moss-Sharman on CHRW radio. Some of the topics discussed may be triggering. This is presented for educational value only and is not intended as therapy or treatment. All accusations are alleged. Our providing the information below does not necessarily constitute our endorsement of it.

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  CHRW UNIVERSITY OF WESTERN ONTARIO (London, Ontario)

Broadcast on May 25/26, 2000

Radical Radio Host: Selena Horrell

Interviewee: Lynne Moss-Sharman, Canada Contact ACHES-MC Advocacy Committee for Human Experimentation Survivors - Mind Control

Selena Horrell:

Good evening everybody, and welcome to RADICAL RADIO. My name is Selena, and I will be covering for Andreas this week. RADICAL RADIO is heard at 6.30 PM on Thursdays and 6.30 am on Fridays.

I have a particularly interesting show for you this week. It's featuring Lynne Moss-Sharman, the Canadian contact for the Advocacy Committee for Human Experimentation Survivors. Human experimentation might bring to mind the experiments conducted in Montreal in the 1960's using hallucinogenic drugs on the mentally ill. The CBC did quite an interesting report on them a little while ago.

This is experimentation of a different sort. I might just get to the interview to touch on everything. I am going to present as well, at the end of the show, Rick Carlson's address, so be sure you have a pen and paper ready because it's pretty important to watch this case right now. Rick Carlson is being pressured, certainly by the Canadian government, and at the same time watched by advocates for him, to make sure he is safe – and is a safe spokesperson against human experimentation, particularly of mind control. So, here's the interview:

Selena Horrell:

I am here with Lynne Moss-Sharman, advocate for ACHES-MC. Do you want to explain that a bit ...

Lynne Moss-Sharman:

I am the Canada contact for ACHES-MC - the Advocacy Committee for Human Experimentation Survivors. We have a network in both the United States and Canada. I live in Thunder Bay, Ontario and most of the contact I have with people is either by telephone or by Internet, e-mail. We started off as a group that primarily represented child survivors of CIA experimentation during the Cold War period during the late 1940's and 1950's, 1960's. We currently have a database with over 260 child survivors.

Selena Horrell:

That's an incredible number ... and what a span of time as well.

Lynne Moss-Sharman:

It's not generally well known at all. 1500 Nazi doctors and researchers were brought to North America, primarily by the American government following WWII and some of them of course went into the nuclear industry in Los Alamos. But many of them were placed in key positions in hospitals and in medical research facilities, both in the United States and in Canada.

It's a story that is just coming out, and I think we have actually had more coverage about it in Canada than they have in the United States. CKLN Radio at Ryerson Polytechnic University in Toronto did a 47-week series two years ago, on mind control experimentation. The transcripts are available on the Internet. www.aches-mc.org

Selena Horrell:

I am astounded by the number of child experiments, and then there is this other section of inmates that are still being experimented on, or have been in the sixties and seventies ...

Lynne Moss-Sharman:

We have been contacted by ex-military personnel as well, but what I am really concerned about today is the inmates and ex-inmates -- primarily from the Kingston institutions -- Millhaven, Collins Bay and Kingston ECB. The first male inmate in Canada -- Richard Carlson who is currently in solitary in Stony Mountain Penitentiary in Winnipeg, Manitoba -- is the first man to launch a lawsuit against Correctional Services Canada about having been experimented on during the period of 1968-74. He had been held on remand in the Thunder Bay District Jail for almost 2 ½ years which is really an unheard-of period of time. Remand usually means a 6-month period until sentencing takes place.

What happened with Rick was turning himself in on July 04, 1997 for a warrant for a bank robbery that had been committed in 1992. He went to trial for that and he was offered a plea bargain on the last morning of the trial -- they offered him five years penitentiary time for the bank robbery. He pleaded not guilty throughout the duration of the trial, and again, that afternoon, January 28, 1998 -- he stood up in court again, said he was not guilty, and that he had been experimented on by the CIA in Millhaven, Collins Bay and Kingston ECB.

He specifically asked the judge to begin an investigation on his behalf because he understood clearly within himself that the brainwashing experiments that were conducted on him and other inmates have had an enormous impact on his life, and on his behaviour. He made that public declaration that day. When the trial was over that afternoon, he was found guilty, and the Crown Attorney immediately proceeded with a Dangerous Offender application against him although he has a very minimal record of violence in a thirty year history and the couple of bank robberies that he did carry out were not lucrative, and there were no guns fired, no shots fired.

I read about him in the local newspaper actually (The Thunder Bay Chronicle Journal) the day after the trial ended, and I lived five bus stops away from the District Jail and with my connection to ACHES-MC -- I thought it was some coincidence that I would be sitting in Thunder Bay with this man coming forward about the CIA experiments, so the advocacy for him really began then.

Selena Horrell:

There is a definite connection then between the two experimentations ... can you talk a bit about the type of experiments, or the connection to the Psychiatric Associations in both Canada and the United States?

Lynne Moss-Sharman:

Yes. (I believe) (t)wo presidents of the American Psychiatric Association were involved with CIA experiments on children in the post-Cold War period. One of them is well known to Canadians -- Dr. Ewen Cameron from the Allen Memorial Institute. Testimony was given in Washington, D.C. in 1995 by fifty child survivors of brainwashing experiments and a number of the women who testified named Ewen Cameron posthumously because he did die in the mid-sixties.

The other president of the APA who was involved with -- doing CIA experiments on children -- was Dr. Martin Orne who died earlier this year in Philadelphia.

The link between what was done to the children in that covert setting and what was done to the prisoners -- I'll say in the 1960's and the 1970's -- there's the Edgewood Arsenal link in Maryland. Dr. George Scott was the Correctional Services Canada psychiatrist who had the primary responsibility for the supposed psychiatric care of inmates in Kingston area penitentiaries -- and Dr. Scott has been named in the lawsuit against CSC by Richard Carlson and also by Dorothy Proctor who was in the Kingston Prison for Women in 1961-2. She is currently engaged in a $5 million lawsuit against CSC and Dr. Scott.

Interestingly, Dr. Scott was seconded during WWII by the Canadian military and he became the Director of Rehabilitative Psychological Services for the Canadian Army and in 1944 he set up 'rehabilitation' camps across Canada for soldiers who, without their knowledge, had been tested and had been found to be either psychiatrically or psychologically unfit. These psychological retraining camps were still in place following WWII as well.

Given what Dorothy Proctor and Richard Carlson have alleged what Dr. Scott was doing to them -- given the position he was in during WWII -- and if we think about the Chemical and Biological Warfare research that was going on in Canada from 1942 onwards -- I would say there is a very direct link between Dr. Scott and Dr. Ewen Cameron in Montreal, and Edgewood Arsenal in Maryland where many of the military experiments were being carried out on U.S. soldiers.

Selena Horrell:

That's astonishing. And it's just coming out now?

Lynne Moss-Sharman:

Yes, I don't think too many people, not just in Southwestern Ontario but right across Canada -- not too many people are aware of it. The Ottawa Citizen has published over fifty-five articles about the prison experimentation in the past two year period, but to my knowledge the three Toronto dailies - The Globe and Mail, The Toronto Star and the National Post - have each published one article.

So it is not information that has been made known to the Canadian public by any stretch of the imagination.

Selena Horrell:

It doesn't surprise me, considering the ownership of the media, and probably connections that go way back. This is all speculation, but ... yeah. I think others would agree.

Lynne Moss-Sharman:

No surprise here.

Selena Horrell:

It's tragic. Have you had a lot of success from The Citizen in reaching other victims -- people who have either come forward from the prison system or from child experiments?

Lynne Moss-Sharman:

Not so much on that level, because to be honest, not too many ex-inmates from that era are living in Ottawa. Some of them I know are dead -- I have a list of inmates who died during the experiments in those particular institutions. The ones who are still alive -- I would assume, given the level of damage, many of them are probably in other Federal penitentiaries.

The John Howard Society has not been at all helpful in making the information known through their network, and that would be the natural information distribution network.

The Elizabeth Fry Society -- the organization that works with female inmates and ex-inmates -- has assisted Dorothy Proctor tremendously in accessing information and providing her with means of communication. They have been tremendously supportive, and they also went to great lengths -- they put advertisements in newspapers and in journals that female inmates might read -- right across Canada.

I think because Richard Carlson is the first male inmate, I would assume that Correctional Services Canada has a vested interest in a.) silencing him, and b.) making sure that they put every roadblock that they can in front of him so that his lawsuit will be very difficult. Richard has to be the first of hundreds of men who could come forward.

Selena Horrell:

It sounds to me like this is a case like the child experiments -- where one story is told, and hundreds of others recognize the story and say, 'Wait a minute, this is what happened to me', because it has been buried psychologically, and also then kept quiet by society and it's only by the stories being told that it comes forward.

Lynne Moss-Sharman:

That's it exactly, and because it was brainwashing -- they were creating amnesic barriers in the prisoners. Dorothy Proctor mentioned at the ICOPA conference at Ryerson University last week that it was like many other people who have been through trauma like that -- and certainly many ex-inmates -- she had a drug addiction. When she got to the point in her life when she got clean and stopped using drugs, it was only then that she

was able to really start feeling and thinking about what had actually happened to her. She was 17 years old when they did LSD, sensory deprivation and electroshock 'treatments' on her, in concert with each other.

Selena Horrell:

It sounds very much like what happened in Montreal as well, which is recognized almost as a part of a dark Canadian past -- but still not nearly recognized enough I am sure in a very public way.

Lynne Moss-Sharman:

I would imagine that a lot of people thought that it began and ended with Ewen Cameron and those particular victims in the Allen Memorial at that point. But even with Ewen Cameron -- there are so many other victims of his who are still alive today. There is actually a lawsuit that was just appealed in Montreal by a woman named Gail Kastner, she is 68 years old. She was regressed to an infantile state by him and she is going through the process -- again, he died in the mid-sixties and lawsuits are still being filed against him.

Selena Horrell:

How can people reach ACHES-MC? I have a website here which is probably the best direction www.aches-mc.org

And probably research at The Ottawa Citizen ...

Lynne Moss-Sharman:

Yes -- go to The Ottawa Citizen archives -- the two journalists – the primary journalist is Mike Blanchfield so if you look for articles by him on the online archive -- and Jim Bronskill is the other journalist who has been heavily involved in the research.

Selena Horrell:

Well. This is a huge task that you have, but it seems that the more that information is disseminated, the more people will come forward.

Lynne Moss-Sharman:

I am really glad to have this opportunity to let Western students and other CHRW listeners here in London know about this. I am going to leave the Richard Carlson address at Stony Mountain Penitentiary and I hope that at some point in your show you can ask people to send postcards or letters to Richard Carlson at Stony Mountain. It's really, really important that the guards, the superintendent, that CSC, knows via mail directly to Rick -- that they know people are watching what is happening to him now.

Selena Horrell:

Well, thank you very much.

Lynne Moss-Sharman:

You are very welcome.

**********************************************************

Selena Horrell:

Well, there you have it folks. That was Lynne Moss-Sharman, again of ACHES-MC and I have the address if you like. If you know anybody who may have been experimented on as children -- it seems this might have been in and around areas of Air Force bases -- any kind of rehabilitation, some post WWII trauma they may have experienced. Address is 230 Miles St. E. #3, Thunder Bay, Ontario P7C 1J6 807 622 5407 lsharman@microage-tb.com

More importantly even, is information, any kind of letters you can send to Rick Carlson at the Stony Mountain Penitentiary. As Lynne was saying, the Canadian government is definitely going to put up any roadblocks that they can to Carlson's case and it is important to let them know that people are out there and watching him, and paying attention to what is going on with his case against CSC, that is Corrections Services Canada. So here is the address at Stony Mountain Penitentiary ....

NOTE: Since this broadcast Rick was transferred to Edmonton Institution (maximum security) address:

RICHARD CARLSON

c/o Edmonton Institution

21611 Meridian, Box 2290

Edmonton, Alberta T5J 3H7

Send him a letter of support if you like -- mostly again, it is very symbolic to get across to the Canadian government that there are people who are paying to attention to this case. It reminds me a bit of the cases we see in the States with unlawful detainment and on the level of the importance of public attention to the state of inmates.