Kidnapped: Human Monitoring of CE4 Experience  

Karla Turner Interviewed by Randy Koppang and Melinda Leslie

Commemorating Dr. Karla Turner's untimely passing, this interview gives greater exposure to underreported insights from her CE4 (ET abduction) research

http://www.paranoiamagazine.com/kidnapped.html


Dr. Turner died of cancer January 10, 1996. She pursued CE4 mysteries, both as investigator and one encountering being "taken" (1). Turner's final interview is combined here with data provided via the experiences claimed by two abductees, Melinda Leslie (Part 1) and James Baxter (Part 2). The dialogue with Dr. Turner and Melinda Leslie occurred May 7, 1995.

In our global debate over which social forces will impact most on human futures, ET/UFO data is not even an issue... yet. However, in recent years, perhaps a prime obstacle to public recognition of UFO data is the constant stream of paranormal scenarios termed "abduction." The paranormal character of such possible experience is additionally implausible to science and its skeptical demands for scientific verifiability.

The CE4 context in focus here is Ufologically controversial. But it should be easier to corroborate, moreover, if "official disclosure" of UFO reality opens doors for sanctioned inquiry. The goal here is recognizing patterns of data where CE4 experiencers report events apparently having human interference, at times appearing entirely perpetrated by humans. Such evidence abounds. And we make this distinction: possibly encountering ET vs. being kidnapped, or surveilled and harassed by humans, either by military security or a corporate intelligence command.(2) To be sure, the intent here is not to stereotype ET as good, bad or indifferent; and not to allege guilt, by second guessing the politics of policy-making throughout 50 years of global social deconstructionism.

The UFO community has spawned the controversy to which I refer. A "major theme" of The Alien Jigsaw is (her) "determined rebellion against... the typical abduction scenario (reported by) major... researchers... (whose view of) elements that don't fit into commonly repeated patterns don't deserve inclusion in the literature."(3) Ms. Wilson believes "it's going to take a lot of different researchers, each with a different focus, to pull all of this information together," since CE4s may comprise "teaching dreams, visions, alien theatrics and shades of government involvement."(4)

In the growing body of CE4 literature, reports of human/governmental interference in individual experiences would be deemed "atypical."(5) Yet, the following cases do so: Leah Haley, Christa Tilton, Diane Sanchez, Pam Hamilton, Karla Turner and husband Casey, Kim Carlsberg, Melinda Leslie, Lori Lingenfelter, Licia Davidson, James Baxter, Bette Andreasson-Luca and husband Bob, Beth Collins, Steve Neill, Anna Jamerson, Whitley Strieber, Larry Warren, Debbie Jordan and others. Most of these case histories are well documented in available books.

Fifty years of recent history reveals academic/scientific rejection of unbiased inquiry into "typical" UFO data, culminating as evidence of institutionalized denial and, therefore, pop-media distortions of the facts. Thus, by grounding an area of UFO research in simple terms of exclusively human affairs, we tend to broaden our collective perception, lending credibility to routinely reported patterns of paranormal experience implicitly; e.g., the growing corpus of revisionist history regarding the parapsychology of post-quantum intelligence-gathering by the National Security State. ET is not the exclusive subject of Ufology. An expos╣ of the following unforeseen circumstances can lead to an interface between the paranormal and covert earthbound operations. Evidence demands this.
- Randy Koppang


Randy Koppang (RK): It's quite possible to overlook and undervalue obscure details of CE4 research generally, although these certainly don't impair or discredit the major premise: actual human involvement in ET/CE4. Please comment on the re-abduction/kidnapping of CE4s.

Karla Turner (KT): Yes! My first exposure to this was when my husband was kidnapped by "military" before I was ever into research. We were having our own experiences and trying to deal with them. In November 1988, my husband was taken to an underground facility (6); completely military, completely human. He had been in the military nine years prior (to our marriage).

This was very clearly, to him, a military installation and a massive storage installation. We thought (it may have been) the FEMA center in town, where we lived. Because it's the Continuity of Government FEMA facility, for one thing. And there are many generators/dynamos, all sorts of supplies. He saw this storage (type) area when being taken from the holding area. There were a number of other people in a very dazed, zombie-like state, as he was, taken by military guard down a corridor to a room where there was a Major, in uniform, behind a desk, where Casey was seated in front of the desk; questioned specifically about what alien activities our family had been involved in; what he knew about any of their agenda. He was so outraged at being taken, even in his dazed state, he absolutely refused. He even tried to sink back into the out-of-it state they aroused him out of for this so he would not have to answer. He was extremely outraged! The Major got more and more angry, and made threats to the family that we would be hurt if he didn't talk. He refused to talk.

Then - something - all we (know) is something was applied to the back of his neck and he went totally out. (Casey) doesn't know if he was interrogated in that state. I suppose there are states you can be put in where you're not aware but can still be talked to.

He was returned home the following morning. When he woke up, there was still some drug effect in his system, and disorientation. He was still having the visual "trails" effect from whatever was given him. He recalled quite a bit consciously what had occurred. With two different regression sessions, a year apart, he was able to fill in a lot of what did go on, but never got past when they zapped the back of his neck.

I'd never heard of anybody being kidnapped by military at that point. Ever! This was an anomaly, and at that point was the most outrageous thing; I mean, far more outrageous, to us, than alien abduction had been, simply because of it being our own people.

RK: So you really do think there actually are aliens?

KT: I think there are non-human entities. I had encountered an insectoid being when I was five and a half years old. I don't know where they come from. It's as good a guess they're terrestrial in origin as that they are ET in origin. They're not like us! It bothers me that if they were ET, they are most adept at cover stories regarding where they are from. Also, in my opinion, we're a vital resource for them. They take from us something that's very necessary. If they came from some other system (etc.), why would we be a vital source for them if we're not part of their natural situation? So, I find it a little far-fetched to think that they came in from (outside). And if we ever get to the genetics (issue), I think the cross-breeding hypothesis is another cover story.

RK: In the chronology of your experience, was there a clearly defined event after which the human interference phenomenon began to occur, additional to what you believed were exclusively ET encounters?

KT: There were several events which made me aware of the human involvement angle. First off, consciously, I had recalled an abduction by an alien being when I was five and a half years old, always remembered from the time it occurred, throughout my life.(7) I had another event consciously recalled in 1981. Then, my husband began to recall events (occurring) in his childhood, clearly involving craft and entities. We (then) began having things happen in current time; in our house, CE4s. So we began to explore what was going on.

It wasn't until November 1988, when Casey was taken by the military, that we knew for sure how far military personnel would go. Up to this point, the minute he began to realize what was happening, and we (communicated with) someone in the UFO community by phone, we began having phone interference, mail tampering. The first two times we met with Ufologists, we were followed by the same car, two different times, two months apart. We began having helicopter overflights; numerous, numerous overflights, all times of the day and night, different types (of them). We lived in our house for five years and never had helicopters before then. It became the standard. I mean, I'd have nine a day!

So we knew there was a human element involved. First, we thought they were just monitoring (conversations). But once we made phone connections, we began having all this human-type activity: surveillance and a number of other things that are in the book.

 RK: So that's what did it. You came out of the woodwork; you were on the phone - they said, ahh! Here's one.

 KT: Right! My son was in graduate school in physics. He was engaged to a woman in graduate school. She was an ROTC student. In her senior year (prior to graduate school), she had medical problems and wanted to leave the program, was in the process of going through the procedures to leave. But since it was coming time for her to graduate, if she didn't get out, she'd have to ask for a duty assignment, etc., go through the rest of her training. Though she hadn't got out of the ROTC program at that point (she knew she was leaving), they said you still have time to sign up for a duty assignment. She went to the ROTC sergeant to make an assignment request. And she made a request that would keep her closest to her medical doctors, which happened to be meteorological duty. (When) she signed up, the female ROTC sergeant went ballistic! And she said, "You can't do this; you don't want to sign up for meteorology. Don't you want to get into the R&D program? That way, you'd find out the real truth about UFOs and aliens! You might even get to do research and test with it."

RK: You mean that statement was phrased to imply the sergeant already knew of your encounters?

KT: YEAH! The ROTC sergeant said this to my daughter-in-law (making) us think, hell, someone in the military really knows what's going on! (Since) we never told anyone outside of about six members of the family, and a few Ufologists - by phone.

She came home and told us, and was very, very frightened. She ran out of the office, not even answering the sergeant. She ran directly home and (demanded), "You know what this woman's done to me; how'd they know about this?" - really, really, upset. She did (leave) the program. So we knew there was human monitoring and surveillance of some sort, for all the things that were happening.

RK: I've heard variations of stories very similar. Yet, skeptics view hypnotically derived data regarding alien abductions as unacceptable. So if you counter that view by offering cases like this, where regression was unnecessary, or CE4 cases with total conscious recall of their experience, then the skeptical view shifts to a theory that some group perpetrates alien hoaxes, so as to create public belief in ET for some reason unknown, i.e., ETs actually don't exist.

KT: Well, you can believe what you want. But I don't know of any ROTC sergeant who's ever made a statement like that to a person in the program. So I have no doubt of government involvement. We'd had evidence of it before Casey was ever kidnapped and interrogated. But the first time I ever knew anyone had been kidnapped and interrogated by military was my husband. And when I got into research and began to deal with numbers of other similar cases, then we start finding out this wasn't an anomaly. This is part of the program!

Melinda Leslie (ML): (Was there something which started the human involvement...?)

Well, I was on the phone from the beginning, talking to Bill Hamilton all the time, back in 1989. I was just having typical abduction stuff. But as far as military (contact), what may have made a difference was, I had already (visited) Area 51 with people a lot of times. So it's not necessarily my visiting bases, or the phone. Because all of that was happening (for quite some time).

The first time we had something military-related was (when) I was on a trip with two (others). We were going over Angeles Crest Highway to visit the infamous Northrop facility in Lancaster. There had been sightings out there. This was our first time to go out there, near Edwards Air Force Base. We were on our way... we had a trip that should have taken 1.5 hours that took three hours. We had real, classic missing time; a bunch of physical symptoms; confused and lost. So we pulled over and thought, wait a second... When we (determined) what time it was, we thought, that's impossible. We'd been on that road before.

During the next few days, I started to recall, consciously, an experience. And it was all ETs and an alien ship. The whole thing was with aliens. The three of us were together (etc.). Then I went to have regressions with Deborah Truncale, after I recalled it consciously. Apparently, I recalled seeing a guy in uniform standing in the back, on the ship, while ETs were doing something with us. There was a guy watching the whole procedure. I said this in regression. And managed to not only say this and discuss it with Deborah, but I had conveniently forgotten about this. And it was because of the recent experiences in July and November 1993, which jogged my memory to recall this one in 1991. One of my friends had said, don't you recall we saw a guy in uniform before - you talked about it, don't you remember? (The hypnotherapist confirmed this.) But I had conveniently put it out of my mind.

RK: The following question I wish you both to correlate. On page 115 (Taken), Beth recalls seeing "a uniformed, red-headed man," one of two who had led Beth to a facility in the American Southwest, seemingly in charge. In comparing synchronicities with fellow CE4s, do you find this (or very similar) red-headed man common in the encounters of others?

KT: Yes. A man of his description has turned up in more than one case (involving the military).

RK: Having a similar role, as opposed to just standing around and having red hair?

KT: Yeah. A couple of people have said the person interrogating them had the red hair.

ML: And that's the guy who may have interrogated me.

KT: And I will say, in my husband's case and in a number of other cases, the person who interrogated was an officer with silvery-gray hair, appearing to be in his fifties. So I've not just had this red-haired guy turn up in reports.

But what is ironic, if you want to talk about synchronicities, two summers ago, when I was working with "Amy" (from Taken). Amy was in Texas, I was in Arkansas. The hypnotist to do her regression work was in Oklahoma. So we met in Oklahoma at the regressionist's home. The regressionist told me when we arrived that she had a phone call from an old, old acquaintance, happening to be in town this particular weekend, insisting he wanted to visit her. She told him she really couldn't because she'd be working; we were coming over. (This man) was a Rear Admiral in the Navy.

RK: How did he know your regressionist?

KT: His family lived in the same area in Oklahoma. He'd grown up there, and they'd known each other years ago. He was now in Virginia, a medical officer, and according to him, one of the most highly placed medical persons in charge of the military hospitals.

RK: But over the years they'd lost contact?

KT: Yes. This was family stuff from years and years and years ago; hadn't seen him in quite a while. All of a sudden, this same weekend, this man says he's in town, wants to (visit). And she said, wouldn't it be nice; tells me wouldn't it be wonderful if we convinced this Rear Admiral to take all this stuff seriously?

I said, Barbara, forget it, you can't do that. Either they already know, are not going to admit it; or they're out of the loop and aren't going to believe it. That's how it is with military. I said, No! I do not want him over here. After what we had happen with our military situations and other (CE4s), the last thing I want to do is have "friends" in military. I don't want that contact; don't like what we've had, didn't want any more! And she said, well, I told him not to come.

At 11: 30 at night he comes anyway! He's burly, reddish-blondish hair, thick body hair, reddish freckled, exactly like I had heard described in two other cases. And he barges in, basically told not to come. And we did question him, why he's in town, as he's based on the east coast in charge of medical facilities. His statement was first, both his parents were very, very ill, had been in hospital. So he'd come all the way home for that. Then, in the course of conversation, he let slip he'd been out skiing, barbecuing and partying, and doing all sorts of stuff; (no) mention of his family in hospital after that. So I found his story a little dubious.

He proceeded to take a great deal of time to tell me: "You can't go around talking about all this alien-abduction stuff until you have concrete proof, concrete evidence, and you can bring it out to show the public so they can see for themselves. You have no business talking about this. Nobody is going to believe you..."

RK: You mean he just dropped that into...

KT: Oh, yeah, immediately!

RK: ...into the conversation, just like the ROTC officer, he sprang "aliens" on you, outta nowhere?

KT: No, not outta nowhere. Because he knows what Barbara does. Barbara (Bartholic) does regression work.

RK: But was he there to immediately debate your ET encounters?

KT: No. He ostensibly came to see "old friends." We told him not to come. He spent a few minutes doing that, then got to the point of making this long exchange with me. And I said, I'm not here to convince the public of anything. The ETs are doin' that, one at a time, as they abduct people; people are knowing it's real. I don't have to go out and tell 'em anything; it's happening and they're gonna know about it.

"Well, you can't do this. And you say this, expecting them to believe you and getting credibility..." I said, I don't care about credibility. I'm not out there to - my job's not to convince anyone. My job's to deal with people who already know it's real, because they're dealing with it. "Well, then," he says, "you talk about all these implants (8) and this sort of stuff. I've been in the military 25 years and never have I heard, officially or unofficially, (9) anyone in military discuss anything about UFOs.

First off, you know he's lying right there, okay? I said, In 25 years you never heard anything about it - "No, ma'am, never heard anybody say anything! And as for implants, I'm in charge of all the medical facilities. If any of our personnel had shown up having any implants, I would have known about it. And none of them do!" (10)

I said, Maybe you're not in "the loop," where they trust to give you information. And, boy, he didn't like that! Definitely. He said, "I've got high friends in the CIA and NSA. If there was anything going on, they'd have told me. And there's nothing going on, because they didn't tell me." And I said: SIR! IF YOU DID KNOW, hypothetically, there was ET activity of any sort goin' on, could you tell me? "Well, I couldn't do that, because it'd be classified information." Then why are you sittin' here telling me you know there's not any, when you and I both know if there was, you could not tell me anything?!

It was just strange, the coincidence of (him) being this red-headed (man) described exactly, with the thick body hair, as two descriptions of interrogators that people had reported.

RK: And, of course, Melinda has had a similar...

ML: Yes. A red-headed guy did my interrogation. But this (particular) guy is tall and thin.

KT: (Mine) was not thin. He looked like he did weights; real proud of it.

ML: Well, (my) person might do weights, but seemed to have a well-built, average build; strawberry blond hair and those blond-tipped eyelashes. He's looking at me real mean, with this real pretty eyes and eyelashes, you know, but he was convincingly mean. I had not read your book at that time. And in a phone conversation inviting you to come speak at MUFON, Orange County I brought up (this issue) James had spoken to you about, that you had seen this. And you said, Oh, yeah.

James hadn't told me the guy was interrogating! He just told me that people had seen a red-headed guy. That just blew me away, that it was a real similar description from other cases. When you have this happen, you don't expect anything you get (will) ever match anyone else.

KT: Melinda, the first year, every time someone else (had) a validating report confirming or correlating what we've had - I swear, every time it was like someone doubled up a fist and hit me in the stomach. I would just get sick. It was one more thing which would not let me push this out of reality. I didn't want it to be real! I wanted it to be anything but real!

ML: The first person who (substantially) confirmed this happening to me was Licia. I would say: "Have you ever heard of this and this," and she would say, "Yes, when they did this to you, then did they do this to you," and I'd say, "How did you know that?"

KT: Of course, Licia and I (confirmed such comparisons) when we got together. Because she started to tell me something, and I finished it for her. And it was one of the most anomalous reports. What bothered her (was) I could finish the statement before she told me. Because I have a case in Arkansas of the same thing. But let's back off here and not be paranoid. There are many red-haired people, and in the military.

RK: I've tallied about 20 cases of this kidnapping situation. In your book you report others. How many do you know of?

KT: I never counted... it would take me a while to sit down and think of how many, as I'm also privy to Barbara Bartholic's research. She's had scores of cases in the last 15 years. And I know of quite a few amongst her cases.

RK: I'm not familiar with Ms. Bartholic.

KT: You won't be. She doesn't write or lecture. She's constantly working in this field, and said, you be my spokesman, I don't have time for this.

RK: You believe, however, that among the more prominent researchers of CE4, human involvement/interference is underreported.

KT: Yes, like Debbie Jordan/Kathy Davis, when Hopkins did the book on "Kathy Davis," he never mentioned that she had military/underground abduction with medical procedures. Debbie told me all about it. When I got ready to do this book, I said, Debbie, can I refer to your experience; as you're a well-known person, it (lends) credibility to these unknown people if they knew someone as well-investigated as you have been would say, yes, this happened to you. She said absolutely. Go ahead and do it. I'm writing my own book and will go into detail, so yes... And there are other of Bud's CE4s who've reported military involvement.

KT: John Carpenter has had cases reporting military. David Jacobs - if he has had them - I'm assuming he has, but if he has, he would have said, 'you were just seeing ETs in disguise ... there are no humans involved in this.' So this would not have been discussed.

ML: I spoke privately with Bud, where he narrowed it down to about five cases with (what he accepts as) military participation.

KT: But, Melinda, if there's only 5 cases, is that, therefore, to say this isn't worth worrying about. These cases would be those you'd most want to pursue, if you're really looking for information!

ML: I said to him, isn't it potentially the most incredible and most fertile ground for research, because it's human, it's a traceable trail of events we can investigate by known procedures; as opposed to ETs, who use technology we can't follow, etc. He said, "Yes. But I (he) can only do so much. If you want to (do it), I support you one hundred percent."

RK: You mean, by harping too hard on this aspect of CE4, the influential people whom prominent researchers attempt to gain association with, may react, further marginalizing the issue?

KT: See, I think that's a futile hope. All the researchers who try to gain mainstream respectability, therefore downplaying and backpedaling and partially censoring... (that's) a lost cause... you're never going to get the respect you want. I don't care what you do.

ML: Meanwhile, a lot of the evidence is being missed. People are being excluded from presentations...

KT: If you want credibility, get out of this field. You can't have both!

RK: (Licia has deduced the following may generally explain who is responsible for her re-abductions and surveillance, confirmed by someone she believed was a legitimate intelligence agent.) Those humans responsible for her monitoring (helicopter surveillance, phone taps, etc.) are not exclusively governmental/military ops. Rather, they represent corporate intelligence; e.g. Defence Intelligence Security Command, or PI-40. In addition to possible monitoring by a section of the National Reconnaissance Office, or an alleged DOD group called N9-11. Do you have any correlations in this area, so as to dispel imprecise conclusions based on blanket observations that humans dressed in paramilitary garb must be truly military?

KT: I don't have any names of specific groups, intelligence, military, civilian/corporate. No. From the cases we've (pursued), here's what I can say: The facilities include personnel from more than one branch. The facilities themselves are obviously government authorized and funded, because they match those we've known are government underground facilities.

RK: The branches were distinguishable?

KT: Yes. By uniform, at least. "In 'Angie's' case" (11), the people told her she was (they told her several things) part of a genetics/cloning experiment (this was from the humans who had her). Another time, the military people told her she was part of an ongoing military mind control project called "High Shelf Project." And we didn't know if that was the name of a project or if it was a term like very, very high classification of secrecy, or covert. We didn't know what that meant.

ML: When you (named) that during your lecture, a (personally well-known) investigator said that "High Shelf" was an actual name of an MKULTRA subproject.

KT: Okay, which "they" told her. And Angie would know nothing of this, absolutely nothing of this! She said they told her they were part of the "High Shelf" operation, an ongoing mind control program. And that their special group, comprised of people from all branches of military, operated primarily in underground bases. And I wish your friend would speak to me. We've never had anyone identify what "High Shelf" means.

RK: MKULTRA has been documented as a bonafide CIA covert program.

KT: Why would they be picking on somebody like Angie, who's a remote wife of a rancher in the middle of nowhere in Tennessee, but who's had CE4s since childhood?

RK: ...that she came up with that term.

KT: They told her the term. And she would have no way of knowing that.

RK: This is an anomalous thing, that they come up with such details and don't need hypnosis to recall such descriptions.

ML: In my particular two incidences, I can say I'm 99.99% sure it's military, just because of their uniforms, their actions, and treatment of me. It just smacked of military.

KT: And it's authorized at some level. They've got money out the kazoo, the best equipment...

ML: It could be both (military and corporate). And I don't think we need to say it's one or the other, or both doing it separately. It could be that at this level there isn't a distinction between the two.

KT: It makes use of all those resources as it wants to. Because it's above them. And can pick what it wants! I'll tell you something, though. Civilians are involved, obviously. Because there are medical and scientific personnel. A woman who was working at a university hospital, a big one in Arkansas, was wanting to move, get a better job. She was in the office computer end of things, not the medical end.

She got an offer; apparently a real smart woman and good at her job. She got a phone call, having gone to a "head hunter" for different job possibilities in (various) areas; got a call back for an interview with an astounding salary base. But she had to fly to Dallas to be interviewed, and they paid for her flight to Dallas. She met at a restaurant with representatives of this company. And they told her almost nothing; very, very little about the details of the work. (I think it frightened her quite a bit after she thought about it.) But it was great pay. They said they would pay for her to relocate.

The one question they asked that made it stop for her was: The job, by the way, was underground. You would have to be underground for two years. You could not come up for two years - not that you'd work underground, then go home on the surface. You'd have to stay underground and live and work for two years if you want the job - pays a lot of money, gives you a lot of benefits. But you stay underground.

RK: This woman told you her story directly?

KT: Directly. And she did not take the job. No. She said no way in hell could she stay underground for two years.

RK: Did she tell you the name of the company?

KT: No. She said after (leaving) the interview, she started thinking about how weird it was regarding whatever, apparently, was said; there were no threats made, everybody was very nice to her. Yet, the way they shut off and shut down; things that were implied made her very, very uncomfortable. And she has left the state. I don't know where she's gone. This was two years ago (1993).

RK: She was just a woman with an expertise they wished to recruit.

KT: Yeah. She was a computer operator/clerical type, good with computers; it would have been a desk job.

RK: How did you run into her?

KT: She worked with a friend who (went) to our CE4 discussion group. They worked in the same university hospital office together; was a good friend of hers. That's how (the friend said) when she heard about it, she said, "You gotta hear this!"

ML: You know (Eisenhower's statement) "Beware of the Military/Industrial Complex"? That's what it is. At this high level, the military/industrial complex is one and the same. Military/industrial is the same thing, when you get to that level.

KT: Right!

RK: Where does one leave off and the other begin? That may be the prerequisite for understanding this issue.


Notes

(1) Turner, Karla, Ph.D., Taken, Kelt Works, 1994. 
(2) i.e., either by monitors for the NSA, DIA, NRO, or branch-specific military intelligence; or monitors for military-industrial complex contractors; e.g. Defense Industrial Security Command, Jason Group, or "PI-40" were perhaps formerly known as MJ-12 and now carry on where MJ-12 left off. 
(3) Casteel, Sean,
(4) Ibid 
(5) Ibid 
(6) Sauder, Richard, Ph.D., Underground Bases and Tunnels: What is the Government Trying to Hide?, Dracon Press, 1995 
(7) Turner, Karla, Ph.D., Into the Fringe, Kelt Works, 1994. 
(8) Lammer, Helmut, Ph.D., "Preliminary Findings of Project MILAB: Evidence for Military Kidnappings of Alleged UFO Abductees," MUFON Journal No. 344, 12/96; also see MILABS: Military Mind Control and Alien Abduction, IllumiNet, (770) 279-2745. 
(9) Ibid 
(10) Sims, Derrel and Leir, Roger, M.D., see www.anw.com/FIRST
(11) Turner, Taken.